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  • 2017 Proposed Rule Changes for Member Comment.

    The member comment period for 2017 proposed rule changes runs from August 1 to September 15. This is your opportunity to provide feedback on the proposed rule changes for the upcoming year. See the attachment for a summary of the proposed changes here: 2017 RallyCross Rule Change Proposals - Summary.pdf. Copy the short version of the changes below and add your comments to each proposed revision. Thanks for your feedback!
    1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
    2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
    3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
    4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
    5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
    6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
    7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
    8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
    9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
    10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
    11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
    12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
    13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
    14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
    15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
    16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
    17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
    18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
    19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Lightfoot; 08-02-2016, 10:07 AM.
    Keith Lightfoot
    Colorado Region
    SCCA Rules Committee Chair
    SCCA RallyCross Board

  • #2
    1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
      • Disagree as the rule is written. This is okay for the Modified class. For Stock and Prepared this allowance creates another set of rules that a vehicle could be prepared to.
    2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/bars in Stock.
      • Disagree. I don’t think prohibiting them is the answer.
    3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
      • Ok
    4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
      • Disagree. How are we going to determine if someone has added sufficient supporting structure to their car with a cracked windshield? Why write this rule if you cannot enforce it. What happens if you crack your windshield on the way to the event? What about at the event?
    5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
      • Disagree. Why do Canadian entrants get special treatment? What if there is a highly desirable snow tire with only this marking? This might be fine for a regional event but not a national event.
    6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
      • OK. This looks pretty good to me.
    7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
      • OK. I had a roll bar for my stock class Evo. I would have liked to install it but I was not willing to damage the seat and some of the trim. The roll bar obviously is significantly heavier than any of the soft and hard trim that would have to be modified.
    8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
      • No preference. With larger and larger wheels becoming standard, this change is inevitable. Is now the right time to allow +/- 1” in Stock?
      • Disagree. I’m not okay with any size wheel in Stock.
    9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
      • OK. This seems like a good rule for Prepared.
    10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units Prepared.
      • OK. This is a bolt on performance item in a class that allows bolt on performance items.
    11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
      • OK
    12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
      • OK
    13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
      • Disagree. The mandatory safety rule requires that a factory hardtop be in place. If the factory hardtop has a rear window, it must be in place.
      • Disagree as it is written in the Modified category. Agree if the mandatory safety rule is modified. Even with the roll cage in place, the mandatory safety rule requires that a factory hardtop be in place. Modify the mandatory safety rule if we want to allow variances for vehicles with roll bars and roll cages (which I think we should) .
    14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
      • Maybe wrong, but I interpreted that wire mesh was an equivalent for Lexan. OK
    15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
      • OK
    16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
      • OK
    17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
      • Disagree. While I know that the Evo is an awesome RX vehicle, they are not unbeatable.
    18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
      • Disagree.
    19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
      • Whatever. The rule was sufficiently vague that still gave direction to the type of event that we’re conducting. Why the differentiation with stock class vehicles? Do we really think that Stock cars are that much slower than Prepared and Modified? How would you protest a course based upon this rule? Is it based upon a certain section? What about a fast driver in a fast stock car?

    Charles
    RXB
    RX Rule Committee chairman
    MR 1986 Mazda RX-7
    SA 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”. -Makes sense to me.
      2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/bars in Stock. -Agree, too much room for additional upgrades.
      3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules. -Consistent is good, yes
      4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields. -Yikes, please no. I'd hate to see someone DQ'd at a national event because of a cracked windshield.
      5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles. -Hm, probably not a good idea (what Charles said).
      6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment. -Sure, clarification is a good thing.
      7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock. -No, goes with my view on 2.
      8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock. -Yes to both. In autocross the restrictive wheel sizes make more sense. I don't think the benefit is there to restrict wheel sizes in rallycross.
      9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared. -I know this is a big issue with MR2s which is where the proposal originates. I say yes.
      10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units Prepared. -Yes.
      11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared. -This sounds like a great idea for Prepared. I think the rule needs to be allow both simple oil catch tanks and the type that put the oil back in the crank case. There's no performance gain between the two unless the added safety for the engine when adding back the oil counts as such.
      12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified. -Yes, definitely. Like I said in my opinion of 8. I don't see much benefit in huge tires in rallycross (heck, I know several competitors who choose not to maximize width when they could). With that said, if someone wants to widen their fenders to accommodate larger wheels/tires I say let them. In Modified.
      13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified. -I don't have a strong enough opinion on this one.
      14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified. -Is this really something we want to do? I vote if the car needs to look like it's production self then we don't want competitors looking through mesh when competing.
      15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified. -Heck yes! Giant wings are awesome especially when they aren't stock. I say aero-away.
      16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified. -I don't know about this one. Is it that big a deal to have a straight pipe go far enough to get behind the driver? It sounds like this is mostly for looks and I don't see the point in the additional exhaust fumes to the driver and/or starter.
      17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials. -This was my idea! I brought it up mostly for discussion but do believe it can make sense. Yes, owning an Evo doesn't guarantee a win just like driving in the Modified classes doesn't mean you're going to be faster than the Stock classes. Looking back at what wins at national events in the AWD classes I see that the majority of 1st place victories are going to Evos (what happened in Nebraska in 2014 in PA I would consider an anomaly due to gating). Not only that but the difference in times between the winning Evos and everyone else is generally huge. Remember the last year in Tulsa when the same Evo won both SA and PA? As someone who ran in PA it was disheartening. Maybe Evos simply need to be in the Modified no matter what? Heck, Warren has been laying waste in Modified for years now in a PA car. That would be simpler than creating a new category.
      18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks. -I do not agree with this. I think we can start parade laps earlier and save a lot of time. Why wait for all the drivers to be ready? Send them as they get to their cars.
      19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph. -Yes.

      Last edited by max; 08-01-2016, 06:54 PM.
      Max Lawson
      2006 Mitsubishi Evo IX MR
      National Champion 2015 PA
      2nd Place 2016 MA

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
          Disagree. Maybe ok for regional events, but not national.
        2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/bars in Stock.
          Disagree.
        3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
          ok
        4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
          Disagree. Not enforceable. Without instruction on how to calculate the load-bearing potential of both the windshield and sub-structure, it's entirely subjective.
        5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
          Disagree. Maybe ok for regional events, but not national.
        6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
          ok
        7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
          ok
        8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
          ok with +/- 1", disagree with allowing any size
        9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
          ok
        10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units Prepared.
          ok
        11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
          ok
        12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
          ok
        13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
          Disagree with removal, ok with removal if roll cage is present, but as Charles stated, it seems like this should be changed in the safety rule.
        14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
          ok
        15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
          ok
        16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
          ok
        17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
          Disagree.
        18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
          Disagree
        19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
          ok, but I don't think it matters. I don't think any region is changing their course designs over this.


        AZ Border Region
        PA Evo

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lightfoot View Post
          [*]Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock
          The lightest prep category in RallyCross is overdue for a +/- inch diameter allowance. Not unlimited wheel choice, but definitely some common sense in tire purchases.

          Late model cars with giant OE wheels and older cars with small wheels are at the mercy of what the tire market offers, often slim and expensive choices. As OE wheel sizes grow for cosmetic reasons, especially on sporty cars favored by SCCA members, there will be less appeal to Stock category participation. An inch diameter allowance is future-proofing against a manufacturer trend that works against the sport. If we want to keep Stock relevant to future participants, it will have to address the nature of late model production cars.

          By allowing TPMS to be disabled, the RallyCross program has already acknowledged that active competitors in Stock tend to use a different wheel/tire than they run on the highway year round. If there isn't a real performance edge, then make the category more accessible and affordable with a +/-" choice. Let's say you had a popular sporty car like a Ford ST or Civic Si. Would you buy 18-inch snow tires over and over, or would you ditch that headache and just run Prepared? Quiz some of the drivers with newish cars in the Prepared grid this year.

          Gearing benefit from a tire diameter change can already be legally done. Lighter wheels and +/- 10mm offset changes are also legal. Unlocking more tire selection on identical wheel width doesn't upset the performance paradigm. In fact, more selection and cheaper consumable costs foster better competition - witness the absolute flourish in Solo Street category headcounts versus the Stock days.

          I don't support unlimited wheel width and offset, though. There is a much, much larger performance advantage in tuning track width, tire width, and wheel width/contact patch. That's a step too far for the lightest prep category.

          Comment


          • #6
            A few more thoughts:

            Originally posted by Lightfoot View Post
            [*]Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
            Non-US vehicles meeting all other safety rules should be allowed to participate in RallyCross, but not as a mandatory provision of all events (ie, National-level events). I'm okay with them meeting the safe participation requirement, but there needs to be corresponding language limiting their ability to be scored above the regional level.

            For one, there's the difficulty in proving standard/OE equipment where required in Stock and Prepared. Secondly, there's the completely different barrier to acquiring foreign market cars with a potential performance imbalance. Every RallyCross category starts with a production chassis, and introducing unobtanium is not a fair basis for competition in upper-level RallyCross.

            Solo has some language for Canadian entrants, allowing a car "if it is identical to the US-market counterpart" aside from whatever modifications are already allowed by the category. I think a grey market car that is identical to a US offering is fine. A novel chassis or performance level not afforded by rule-legal modification should be welcomed in our sport, but not for National-level trophies.


            Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
            I have had a five-inch, unobtrusive crack in my car's windshield since I bought it in 1998. It hasn't expanded in nearly 20 years of hard track/autocross/RallyCross use, and it hasn't been denied by tech, ever. Further definition is fine, but it should take care to not blanket-prohibit trivial cracks.


            Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
            Catch cans and overflow tanks should be universally allowed. They only add weight, and don't make the car go any faster. I don't get why there is any pushback on anything that prevents spills and fires, even in Stock.


            Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
            As-is, no event is under any obligation to run a parade lap where course walks are allowed. In other words, events that are too inefficient or large to suffer a few minutes of parade laps would deny them from all other events. Time management is an organizational problem, not a rule problem.

            Parade laps give substantial insight on directional and surface changes inherent to unpaved activity. They are also a flavor of the sport. Cumulative scoring (first finish to finish first) and surface reconnaissance are essential "rally."

            Comment


            • #7
              1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
                1. okay
              2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
                1. okay
              3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
                1. okay
              4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
                1. I'm against this if the guidance includes disqualification or keeping the car from being raced, there are too many elements that are outside of the driver's control. Cracks could happen going to the event, or at the event.
              5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
                1. Change to "Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used."
              6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
                1. Okay
              7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
                1. Okay
              8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
                1. Okay
              9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
                1. Okay
              10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                1. Okay
              11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
                1. Okay
              12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
                1. Okay
              13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
                1. I had to read this many times, but if I understand correctly, I'm okay with either option.
              14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
                1. This one affects me, I would love to see wire mesh with bracing as alternative to Lexan (local dirt track requires mesh and I'd like to run in rallyX and dirt track). I would add that if mesh is used, then a closed faced helmet must also be used.
                  I've heard two arguments against this rule that I don't agree with:
                  a. The mesh will obstruct vision: With no side windows, I use a window net; with the tight turns, the window net obstructs my vision to the point where I cant see, but I deal with it. It's the drivers choice to reduce visibility (their own disadvantage) but I don't believe visibility would ever be limited so far as to affect safety of driver or workers.
                  b. The dust will obstruct vision when it enters the car: Valid, but we've all seen cars that have to stop mid run if they get enveloped by a cloud of dust. This is no different. If a driver can't see, then they should stop. Again, mesh windscreens might be giving themselves a disadvantage here, but no additional safety concerns.
              15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
                1. okay.
              16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
                1. Disagree. Unnecessary and good luck staying under the sound limit noted in the rules. Shooting flames at the starters bare legs would be a safety concern.
              17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
                1. Class would be too small with no competitors, I don't feel strongly about this one, but what about forcing these cars into prepared, the same way a Mini Cooper S JCW is automatically classed into STX (Never street class)
              18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
                1. Disagree, The event shouldn't be held up. If a driver wants a parade lap, then they should have their car is lined up before the last car starts it's parade lap.
              19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
                1. Okay, but I feel it's the Safety's job to determine unsafe speeds and adjust, not the rules.

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is my two cents.Thanks for asking for input from the members. One of the reasons I came back to the SCCA after all of these years, in the first place.
                1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
                As long as a vehicle is inside the 25 year import rule, or brought in as competition/display/other type paperwork supporting its importation; I'm fine with it. My issue is with vehicles that are illegal without documentation. Canadian vehicles, being legally registered, and over the border for competition only, would be fine.
                1. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
                I feel that this is insanity, to even suggest. Roll bars and cages are Safety items. Any time you prohibit a safety item, you are opening yourself up to dangerous litigation.
                1. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
                I feel that this is fine, as Snell 2005 are now over 10 years old themselves. Standard breakdown of the materials in a 12-15 year old helmet would render them unsafe. Keeping the ECE helmets consistent with Solo rules allows RX to use the same standards already set in place by Solo, without investing the time into creating our own.
                1. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
                I would suggest following the standard used in many states. If the crack does not impeded the drivers vision, then it is accepted in competition. If it is obstructive to standard view of road use, then it would also obstruct competition use.
                1. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
                If the vehicle is Canadian registered, than Canadian DOT stampings should be fine.
                1. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
                Clarification needed... All protective equipment for the driver should be allowed; again these are safety items. If you are discussing protective equipment for the vehicle itself, i.e. skid plates; then Yes, examples will only make it easier for competitors and tech inspectors alike.
                1. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
                This only makes sense, as the weight of rear seats alone is not going to change a competition index. If this ends up being allowed, then removal of rear seats, and rear paneling should be allowed in Prepared as well. I had to make my car build to be in Modified, because the Prepared rules stated I had to keep my rear seats in place, as well as rear interior body panels. With my cage fitment, this was not possible.
                1. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
                +/- 1" in diameter should be acceptable in Stock class. I would also add +/- 1/2" in width as well. Any size wheel - NO - Not in stock.
                1. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
                No issues here. Can't see a reason why anyone would object to this, honestly.
                1. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                Agreed. Considering the other modifications allowed, this does not seem to be out of line.
                1. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
                As a safety item for the environment, as well as the engine, I would suggest catch cans be allowed in all classes; including Stock.
                1. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
                By the way the rule book is written, I honestly thought this was allowed in Modified. As long as Section E.3 of the rules is followed, the suggested change doesn't make sense.
                1. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
                No issues seen with this suggestion.
                1. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
                I agree with the gentleman above which noted that a full face helmet must be worn in this case. Full face shield, in the down position.
                1. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
                No issues seen with this suggestion.
                1. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
                I think this should be kept as is; "behind the driver". No other reason than noise control at majority of venues with a longer exhaust system. We need to think about the future of the sport, and noise complaints are always a reality with any type of motorsport.
                1. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
                I would suggest that an automatic "class bump" be used, instead of a new class being formed. Stock to Prepared, and Prepared to Modified.
                1. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
                No. This just seems silly. Parade laps are much better for getting comfortable with course layouts. Seat time, even at 5-10 mph, is still seat time, lol.
                1. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
                I sincerely agree with this. Wholeheartedly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Addressing only those where I have input.
                  3. Cracked windshields - A single crack is OK. Multiple cracks would reduce integrity. It's there for protection. Using plexi / lexan already shows concern for reduced strength by requiring additional cage. Similar to side windows. where we rely on them for driver protection OR require window nets. I would disallow multiple cracks including those "baseball" hits as unsafe.

                  10 Differential replacement. I assume this is to help Subies against the Evo's. Applies also to #17 rule proposal. Could cause a cost issue for some but I would strongly avoid the temptation to open pandoras box of class expansion like Solo. Please no. That never ends and dilutes the classes. Local events have a hard enough time filling the 9 classes.

                  12 Fender and door mods for tires. Doors? Really? Fenders I understand. A lot of suspension travel in Mod is a good thing and increases safety as tires stay in contact with the ground. This requires opening up the fenders sometimes. I'm all OK with that.

                  14 Wire mesh for windshields. Um- it starts to look like "Death Race" pretty quick. I know trucks do this all the time but I just don't care for the -bomber- look it brings in.

                  15 Aero mods. Spoilers sure. Ground effects kind of take care of themselves quickly.

                  16. Side exhaust exit. Behind driver I get. In front of driver, not so much. Plus if the engine lets go or fuel dump fire is a thing to avoid.

                  17- see #10 above.

                  18 Parade laps. Nobody wants to walk a muddy course. Not even me. I like em.

                  19 Speeds. I set up a lot of courses and have not had the benefit of a speedo ever. Sanity is required, if the cars are getting into 3rd gear, you should back it off. Most cars are doing a good speed near the top of 2nd gear. Skill requires control not just a lead foot.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    First, thanks for giving everyone a change to input opinions. I'm sure this is not the most fun part of the job.

                    1 Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles
                    Agreed

                    2 Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
                    NO I see no good reason to limit safety and OEM might be more $

                    3 Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
                    Agreed

                    4 Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
                    NO

                    5 Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
                    Agreed but remove "allowed on Canada-registered vehicles" if one person can use them then everyone should be able to.

                    6 Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
                    no comment

                    7 Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
                    no comment

                    8 Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
                    Agreed maybe add =/- 1" width as well

                    9 Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
                    Agreed

                    10 Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                    Agreed This gives the guys in WRXs, RS, lancer, etc an oppurtinity to put themselves on a level playing field with the STis and evos.

                    11 Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
                    Agreed This does provide a performance advantage enabling the car to essentially make its incoming fuel higher octane--->thus can tune more aggressively--->thus more power. Regardless of advantage, it's better for the cars. I see no problem with it.

                    12 Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
                    Agreed What Dynatorch might not realize is some cars have doors in very close proximity to the wheel arch. If you want to significantly increase that area, you might have to modify doors. Look at rear doors on some wide-body STis for example. I say no additional guidance on the extent or appearance of the modification. If they want to make them bigger than necessary, they will just hit more cones with it. If people don't like the cosmetics, you can come back to the issue next year.


                    13 Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
                    allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified

                    14 Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
                    Agreed.

                    15 Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
                    Agreed

                    16 Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
                    Agreed but add must exit passenger side. This would give start workers and others a side with reduced noise and exhaust. It's also better for drivers.

                    17 Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
                    NO Absolutly NO NO NO...... This will not just separate EVOs. It will add more complexity and classes reducing class size. If you don't like getting beat by EVOs and think its solely because of the car, then get one.. I don't own an EVO, and agree they are probably faster. There will always be some cars faster than others unless we make this a spec series. Please NO

                    18 Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
                    NO this would make things dangerous and difficult for second run groups. There are many benefits to doing a drive through over walks. speed for example.

                    19 Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
                    Agreed. It probably wont change things much, but will give builders and organizers a little more flexibility.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1. Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
                        1. Bring it with the foreign cars but if they are going to run in stock they need to bring documentation showing they meet stock class requirements.
                      2. Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
                        1. I would keep the allowance to have a rollbar in Stock. Safety First.
                      3. Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
                        1. Don't know enough about ECE helmets but it is acceptable to be consistent with Solo.
                      4. Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
                        1. I think we should add clarification. Safety is still the most important and one crack here or there may not be an issue but a crack that create an obstruction is a problem. I think we could look to what States DOTs currently do during inspections as a general rule.
                      5. Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
                        1. Change to "Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used." I don't think we should distinguish by where the car is registered. What if someone brings a Canadian car to Nationals? Do they have more options than a US registered car?
                      6. Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
                        1. Okay
                      7. Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
                        1. Okay. the Roll bar will weight more than the seats most likely. I don't see a weight advantage if you are allowing the roll bar for safety. It could however increase the rigidity of the car and create a performance advantage by adding the roll bar.
                      8. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
                        1. Agreed with this based on the case made by Jim Rowland.
                      9. Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
                        1. No on this one. To much variation allowed for snorkels and body work for only mid/rear engine cars.
                      10. Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                        1. Completely agree with this. It has nothing to do with STI's and EVOs. It have everything to do with making the rules equitable in all classes. If PF and PR are allowed to change all diffs so should PA be allowed.
                      11. Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
                        1. Agree with this.
                      12. Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
                        1. No additional rules required.
                      13. Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
                        1. I have no opinion on this either way.
                      14. Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
                        1. I think this should be allowed. It is allowed in many other forms of racing and does not appear to cause an issue with vision obstructions. If they use them on dirt track cars that go 2-3 times as fast why would we have an issue with this? This may also open up the class to many dirt track cars that may want to run from the stock classes. I do agree on the closed face helmet should be added.
                      15. Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
                        1. I have no issues with having these devices.
                      16. Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
                        1. I do not see any reason to add this. No on this one.
                      17. Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
                        1. No on a new class. If there are dominant cars than so be it. I think the class structure as is works very well and for most regions where the majority of the racing occurs the car counts are small. Segregating the classes does not seem to benefit the sport.
                      18. Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
                        1. Disagree, Parade laps should remain.
                      19. Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
                        1. I am OK with 60 mph. I don't see it changing much in the grand scheme of things.

                      Last edited by gsxnut; 08-04-2016, 09:03 PM.
                      Mark Macoubrie
                      RXB
                      Kansas City Region
                      2005 STI 41 PA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Don't 2 & 7 contradict each other since there is no OEM roll cage or even roll bar available for sedans and coupes unless your buying some $100k+ special.
                        Ed Trudeau
                        WOR Rally Director
                        23 PA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My comments are all aimed at National Level event rules. Regional events should be allowed to modify non-Safety rules as they fit.

                          ---Clarify that non-U.S. vehicles are “eligible vehicles”.
                          I don't think non-US vehicles should be eligible. Can of worms with thousands more available vehicles that would cost much more than normal market value to import. Difficulties in Spec documentation can be expected as well.


                          ---Prohibit non-OEM roll cages/roll bars in Stock.
                          Nope. Minor performance benefits, big 'peace of mind'. I know of two middle aged AutoXer who's mothers MADE them put roll cages in stockish cars.


                          ---Drop Snell 2000 helmets from eligibility and allow ECE (European standard) helmets to be consistent with Solo helmet rules.
                          Yes, and more. Why not just copy and paste the Solo rules here?


                          ---Add guidance on how to address cracked/broken windshields.
                          Not really a proposal without words on what that guidance would be. My rule of thumb, no-breach, okay.


                          ---Allow tires with Canadian DOT/TIN to be used on Canada-registered vehicles.
                          No, same reasoning as the non-US spec cars above. (regionals do whatever they want here)


                          ---Add examples of allowable and non-allowable protective equipment.
                          Has there been an issue? If not, leave it alone.


                          ---Allow removal of rear seats and interior components to accommodate roll cage/bar installation in Stock.
                          Nope. Opens a lot of ambiguity in what is necessary to pull for the cage. Also, how many members are really clamoring for cages in stock class? Solo has survived with such rules for a very long time, and they tend to drive nicer cars.


                          ---Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock OR allow any size wheel in Stock.
                          1.) I like stock to remain stock. 2.) There would be an inequity the advantage provided. Most modern cars can't go -1 for brake clearance.


                          ---Allow snorkels and body modification for routing intake tubes for mid/rear-engine cars in Prepared.
                          Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe snorkels are allowed in prepared, but you just can't do illegal stuff to accommodate them (like the mentioned body modifications). I don't think this is appropriate for "Prepared" class. Regardless, if this rule is written, I recommend it be applied universally to prepared cars, not restricted to mid/rear-engine cars as written here.


                          ---Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                          No, big increase in the cost of competition. (Hey Mark, one could also say "If PF and PR are allowed to change ONE diff so should PA be allowed") :-)


                          ---Allow addition of oil catch tanks in Prepared.
                          ...That serve no other purpose...


                          ---Allow modification of fenders and doors to accommodate larger wheels/tires in Modified.
                          This feels more like a clarification on the slightly murky "body" rules. Maybe revisit that whole section to make it clear the body can be completely reworked/replaced for really any reason while staying within the "recognizable" rule.


                          ---Allow removal of rear window in convertible hardtops OR allow removal of rear window in hardtop if vehicle is equipped with a roll cage in Modified.
                          Part 1 - Yes, but for selfish reason. If this is a safety item, so be it. But I'd call for looking at a way to equalize this rule across all cars in the category. Currently any closed car remove/replace the rear glass, but open cars (w/ hard top) can not (inequity). Devise a lowest common denominator rule that lumps all the cars together. Suggestions in my order of preference, subject to safety scrutiny: "All cars may remove rear glass", "All cars may substitute but not remove rear glass", "All cars may remove/subatitue rear glass if a roll bar is used", "All cars may not replace rear glass"


                          ---Allow windshield to be replaced with wire mesh or bracing if vehicle is equipped with roll cage in Modified.
                          This feels along the lines of tube frames and "specials" which considered to be beyond the scope of Mod class. I'd suggest this rule for the "Uber" class likely to come sooner or later.


                          ---Allow any aerodynamic device in Modified.
                          Yes, this was probably an over site previously.


                          ---Allow exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified.
                          I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I don't like it. Slightly unsafe to idle this way, slightly unsafe to workers not expecting the exhaust to exit on their shins. Opens doors for ear bleeding systems. Maybe an allowance for the "Uber" class again.


                          ---Add new class for AWD/4WD vehicles with OEM active differentials.
                          No, this is an exclusion list in disguise. Would like to see an "uber" class proposal. For modification beyond Mod (tube framed, crazy body mods), specials and odd ducks (foreign spec).


                          ---Eliminate parade laps and only allow course walks.
                          Yes, but I'd leave the door open for addition in supp regs. National sites are not all the same, and many can benefit from a parade lap (knock down grass, create a "line", work in some water, etc)


                          ---Change maximum speed guideline from “not normally exceed 50 mph” back to 60 mph.
                          Yes, but this was my proposal :-). Here was my rationale: Reasons given to reduce the speed limit for the 2016 rules were lacking in relevance to RallyCross safety requirements or spirit. To my knowledge the speed reduction was not at the direction (or request) of risk management nor was it related to any persistent safety issue. Emerging programs should not effect the RallyCross rule set.


                          Jay W
                          Last edited by woodrufj; 08-24-2016, 05:44 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dirtman View Post
                            Don't 2 & 7 contradict each other since there is no OEM roll cage or even roll bar available for sedans and coupes unless your buying some $100k+ special.
                            Yeah, but these are individual proposals, not a "Package" of rule changes. So its okay the contradict, I'm sure the RXB won't apply them that way.

                            Jay W

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by woodrufj View Post

                              ---Allow AWD/4WD to substitute any/all differentials with limited slip/locking units in Prepared.
                              No, big increase in the cost of competition. (Hey Mark, one could also say "If PF and PR are allowed to change ONE diff so should PA be allowed") :-)


                              Jay W
                              So I was checking around and I can get a LSD clutch type diff for my STI for about $1200 x 2 = $2400.

                              If I bought a set of Rally Wheels and Tires approx $2000
                              Header and Exhaust Roughly $2000
                              Smaller Brake Swap and keep the 114.3 x 5 wheel hubs roughly $2000
                              Decent set of shocks and Springs with Skid plates roughly $2000

                              All of these other modifications are allowed in PA and we don't seem to be too worried about the cost. My point is that if you allow a differential change to level the playing field in FWD and RWD why would you not do the same in PA?

                              One could also just remove the allowance all together if cost is the biggest concern.

                              Mark
                              Mark Macoubrie
                              RXB
                              Kansas City Region
                              2005 STI 41 PA

                              Comment

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