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2019 R-X Rule Change Proposals - Submit 'Em Here!

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  • #31
    Site selection and course selection should mitigate hitting objects (rocks, trees, hay-bales, etc.) which would intrude into a standard rallycross vehicle. Roll overs do occur, but if the concern is about rollover protection, a well designed roll bar would provide as much, if not more protection, than an oem hard top. (And yes, we've discussed the rollover protection provided by oem Miata hardtops with rear glass installed in previous rule proposals).

    All that being said, is there a requirement for a roof due to our agreements with the insurance providers? If not, it should be possible to just run a roll bar (similar to solo rules) with just arm restraints to prevent occupants' arms from exiting the vehicle in the event of a roll over? We could add the additional stipulation that the occupants with any windows down, or with no roof, wear full-face helmets and eye protection.

    Conversely, would it be possible to pull the rollover data from rallycross events to see how many convertibles rolled versus other vehicles? We've banned trophy trucks for their rollover risk, but we haven't otherwise developed any standardized rollover risk assessment; so why worry about convertibles rolling over?

    I was googling rollover incidents and wasn't able to find too much information, which is probably a good thing. I did come across this thread regarding collapsed roofs. http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/413331 (Granted, we probably shouldn't be seeing that much energy in a rolloever at standard rallycross speeds.)

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    • #32
      What is your argument in favor of this? Are there a line of spec miatas without roof that want to run in your events? Maybe the roof and side glass is there to protect the occupants from intrusion, like a large rock getting kicked up in the air? With the amount of dirt and mud on the side and roof of my car after some events, shouldn't this be a legitimate concern?

      The truth is that oem miata hard tops are not hard to come by. Plus, it would be eligible for the new open class, so spot weld some sheet metal on top and run all day long.

      What other random convertibles that don't have an oem hard top available, and wouldn't be eligible for the open class, do you foresee running as a result of this proposed rule change?
      Jim Perrin
      WNY Region
      NEDIV RX Steward

      Comment


      • #33
        We are a small community. The OEM hardtop requirement is definitely a barrier to entry, particularly if the person doesn't immediately have a hardtop.

        While this issue has been discussed in the past, so I understand the caveats; but I also prefer to find avenues of progress to lower the barriers of entry to the sport. (https://www.scca.com/forums/1963344/...-rule-proposal)

        And I think the MR2 Spyder would make a killer stock class car. The MR2 Spyder sports 15" wheels as standard, so it could don gravel tires and be competitive in PR. In MR it may require additional power; but the traction afforded by the midship layout has proven competitive nationally, especially in the slicker surfaces. Unfortunately, the OEM hardtop is quite expensive. Even changing the rule to the use of an aftermarket hardtop would be a boon to these convertibles.

        Personally I think the Honda S2000 would be overpriced for rallycross, but we see Mitsubishi Lancer Evolutions racing as well, so there's a possibility there as well.

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        • #34
          My perspective is skewed a bit, since here in the North East, you don't see too many Miatas. The fields are dominated with Subarus, mostly because they are readily available, and work great in stock trim with some of our rougher terrain. Most people around here wouldn't bother with a Miata, when you can buy a beater Subaru for the cost of that hardtop. I'm jealous of regions that have venues so smooth that a stock Miata would be able to be driven home after the event...

          However, you can still run the Miata AND MR2 in Open without an OEM roof. I don't exactly understand how a used hard top costs more than a roll cage, but I suppose there are ways.
          Jim Perrin
          WNY Region
          NEDIV RX Steward

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by ldsdonuts View Post
            And I think the MR2 Spyder would make a killer stock class car. The MR2 Spyder sports 15" wheels as standard, so it could don gravel tires and be competitive in PR. In MR it may require additional power; but the traction afforded by the midship layout has proven competitive nationally, especially in the slicker surfaces. Unfortunately, the OEM hardtop is quite expensive.
            I took a serious look at the MR2 for stock class last year. 2100 lbs, mid engined, short wheelbase, and clutch type lsd make it a better package than the miata. The problem is the OEM hardtop was not sold in the US. They were only sold in Europe. You can get one here for a few thousand dollars.

            There is one big problem. You are at the whim of the rules committee about whether your car is legal or not. Non-US cars are now legal in all classes but that has not always been true. It is not clear if you need a euro spec car to run the euro OEM hardtop. It will only take one guy building a Subaru 22B replica to roll these rules back. The MR2 will probably be a casualty of that rule change. Without the option of an aftermarket hardtop, the MR2 is a risky long-term car.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ojannen View Post
              There is one big problem. You are at the whim of the rules committee about whether your car is legal or not.
              They did that a few years ago with the requirement to have the OEM glass in the OEM hardtops. A few of us scrambled to replace the glass in our Miatas.

              I saw the non-USDM rule debate last year. While the cost and ability to determine the legality of an equipment packages may be debatable, it's still up to the competitor to prove that their vehicle is legal (OEM maintenance manuals, etc.). If somebody wants to pay the money to compete in an imported vehicle, more power to them. I'm sure it doesn't cost more than competing in an Evo or Integra Type R.

              Hopefully by pushing the boundary of the rules, we can maintain a ruleset that invites new rallycrossers to try the sport in whatever vehicle they have, without being classed with the more hardcore rallycrossers that may or may not spend too much money on their vehicles. Granted, regional supplementals could group novices in slower categories at their discretion, but regions can't allow vehicles that don't meet the safety requirements (Roll-over risk, oem hardtops, etc.). If we can better quantify those risks, maybe we can mitigate them in more ways than one, hopefully all inexpensive.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ldsdonuts View Post

                They did that a few years ago with the requirement to have the OEM glass in the OEM hardtops. A few of us scrambled to replace the glass in our Miatas.
                Or when catalysts were required in Prepared. A LOT of people moved to Mod that year.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ojannen View Post

                  I took a serious look at the MR2 for stock class last year. 2100 lbs, mid engined, short wheelbase, and clutch type lsd make it a better package than the miata. The problem is the OEM hardtop was not sold in the US. They were only sold in Europe. You can get one here for a few thousand dollars.
                  So do it. If the specs mean the car is a definite winner, then it is worth the money, is it not? People are already spending $600 for one event only rally tires after all.

                  One of my friends picked up an MR-S for a couple hundred bucks. Personally I think it's too light to be a good rallycross car, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, then do it Note the utter lack of AW11s competing successfully.

                  There is one big problem. You are at the whim of the rules committee about whether your car is legal or not. Non-US cars are now legal in all classes but that has not always been true. It is not clear if you need a euro spec car to run the euro OEM hardtop. It will only take one guy building a Subaru 22B replica to roll these rules back. The MR2 will probably be a casualty of that rule change. Without the option of an aftermarket hardtop, the MR2 is a risky long-term car.
                  A 22B replica would be in Mod anyway. When the subject of claiming a "Euro spec" car or whetever came up, the general consensus was that you had to prove that your car was completely true to the spec of the car. For example, my old S40. I could, technically, have swapped in a manual trans and claimed it was a Euro spec car. However, to be legal, I would have had to had proof that the US bodyshell was identical to the European bodyshell, down to the undercoating in use.. US shells often/usually have side impact protection over and above ROW cars. I would also had to have proof that the engine internals were identical, the interior was identical except for C&C allowances, etc. Major hassle that is probably impossble. And then it would have been slower than stock because manuals are not as quick as automatics.


                  If someone wants to go to all of the trouble to document everything, and get the correct parts for everything, and spend $50k to make a $20k car that will get beaten by a stock Neon on bald all season tires, then more power to them if it means they are having fun and coming back for more events.
                  Last edited by Pete; 03-10-2018, 07:40 AM.

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                  • #39

                    Change fuel guidelines for Stock & Prepared. Add section to Mod rules with original wording. I don't believe that race gas (even if it came from a pump) fits the intent of the Stock and Prepared classes.

                    3.2.C.9
                    Fuel may be any type of (< Remove) unleaded 93 octane or less(< Add) , E85, or diesel/biodiesel fuel commonly available at the pump. Alternative fuels must be pre-approved by the event Safety Steward prior to the event. No other alcohol fuels or nitrous oxide are allowed.
                    Christian Retterer
                    PA - 1990 Eclipse GSX
                    Atlanta Region

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I don't think it's worth it to chance the wording for Stock. It's not like you are allowed to do any mods that would actually allow you to benefit from using higher octane fuel.
                      Jim Perrin
                      WNY Region
                      NEDIV RX Steward

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sureshot007 View Post
                        I don't think it's worth it to chance the wording for Stock. It's not like you are allowed to do any mods that would actually allow you to benefit from using higher octane fuel.
                        Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a high octane fuel allow an older car with a distributor and no electronic timing control to advance their timing to gain enough HP to be significant? An example of this would be the Ford Escort GT. We switched to running premium and advancing the timing until it was just shy of knocking. There seemed to be a definite seat of the pants increase in power. I don't know if there is a limit to how much you can gain this way though.

                        I support banning anything higher octane than 93 or 94 (does Sunoco still offer this out east?) in stock and prepared.

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                        • #42
                          Additionally, in prepared you can tune the electronic ignition in new cars and provide a modified map. I made the change in my STI with a custom tune and it made a significant different. In prepared you can have CAI, headers and exhaust mod. I don't know how much it helps in stock but in prepared you can make a significant power mods with a custom tune by changing the fuel map and boost control on a power adder car. Agreed higher octane is also beneficial on older cars. My 1970 Buick GS 455 ran on high octane gas from the factory. If the fuel is readily available then I think it should be able to be used.
                          Mark Macoubrie
                          RXB
                          Kansas City Region
                          2005 STI 41 PA

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by FooBag View Post

                            Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a high octane fuel allow an older car with a distributor and no electronic timing control to advance their timing to gain enough HP to be significant? An example of this would be the Ford Escort GT. We switched to running premium and advancing the timing until it was just shy of knocking. There seemed to be a definite seat of the pants increase in power. I don't know if there is a limit to how much you can gain this way though.

                            I support banning anything higher octane than 93 or 94 (does Sunoco still offer this out east?) in stock and prepared.
                            I had not even considered someone RXing a car that old, in completely stock form.
                            Jim Perrin
                            WNY Region
                            NEDIV RX Steward

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by sureshot007 View Post

                              I had not even considered someone RXing a car that old, in completely stock form.
                              There is a guy in southern MO racing a Chevette in SR and actually does pretty well because it is so light.

                              Mark Macoubrie
                              RXB
                              Kansas City Region
                              2005 STI 41 PA

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Yes, make it legal for Miata's to be able to run with a rollbar. I really don't want to buy a 1500 oem hardtop that I have to take on and off just to run RX

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