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2018 proposed rule changes for member comment

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  • #46
    I find it very interesting that people are going against the modified exhaust rule proposal. Claiming safety for fumes and safety for starters. Someone even claimed it isn't legal in any racing they have ever done.

    Well it is legal in Solo racing (the original proposal quotes the solo rule). That alone should dispel any claims on safety issues since the concerned areas are identical in our sports...

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    • #47
      Originally posted by JOlschewski View Post
      I find it very interesting that people are going against the modified exhaust rule proposal. Claiming safety for fumes and safety for starters. Someone even claimed it isn't legal in any racing they have ever done.

      Well it is legal in Solo racing (the original proposal quotes the solo rule). That alone should dispel any claims on safety issues since the concerned areas are identical in our sports...
      Rule Proposed: Allow the exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified classes.

      From the 2017 Solo Rulebook: 3.3.3.B.16 - Exhaust must exit behind the driver or exit to the side of the car.

      (I bolded the relevant info)

      You've obviously never raced a car where the exhaust exited in front of the driver. I lost the exhaust at the manifold on my rally truck at NEFR once. By the end of the event, I had a really bad headache and felt very ill. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is no joke.
      Jim Perrin
      WNY Region
      NEDIV RX Steward

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by sureshot007 View Post
        Rule Proposed: Allow the exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified classes.

        From the 2017 Solo Rulebook: 3.3.3.B.16 - Exhaust must exit behind the driver or exit to the side of the car.

        (I bolded the relevant info)

        You've obviously never raced a car where the exhaust exited in front of the driver. I lost the exhaust at the manifold on my rally truck at NEFR once. By the end of the event, I had a really bad headache and felt very ill. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is no joke.
        You obviously didn't read the original proposal but inly Keith's abridged version (you might want to adjust the wording on that Keith). Anyway... I'll paste it here...
        "02-13-2017, 03:59 AM
        Modified classes - E. 10. Exhaust systems may be replaced with any material with the following requirements: a. The exhaust must exit to the rear of the driver or to the side of the car b. The exhaust must comply with local noise restrictions. c. No catalytic converter is required. (Solo allows side exit exhausts anywhere on the car; it has been a long time rule in their book and they see all the same staging and racing situations that we do. So I could use their long standing with the rule as proof of it being safe. As long as we comply with noise I think it would be a fun option for the mod classes."

        I have raced with an exhaust torn off at the firewall. I have also had carbon monoxide poisoning while in the ARMY. My proposal stated "the side of the car" element... Just like Solo...

        Hope this clarifies things for you and everyone else. Let mod fly free! 😊

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        • #49
          You are correct - I only read what was in this thread, and that's what I disagreed with. As long as it exits behind the driver, I don't care if it's a turn down or out the side.
          Jim Perrin
          WNY Region
          NEDIV RX Steward

          Comment


          • #50
            "To the rear of the driver or to the side" means that in front of the driver is acceptable as long as it exits the side...

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Pete View Post
              "To the rear of the driver or to the side" means that in front of the driver is acceptable as long as it exits the side...
              That's the exact way I read the new proposed rule and also why I voted against it. To the side, in front of the driver still allows for a fair high chance of exhaust coming into the passenger compartment.

              Comment


              • #52
                Yes, PLEASE, allow a +/- 1” rule on wheel size, or as others have mentioned; just make it unlimited.

                I in particular run a FWD car that came factory with 18” wheels. I am extremely handicapped on tire selection, not to mention I have to basically make a mortgage payment to tire rack to buy my 210 dollar a piece tires for the car, unlike $45 dollar winterforces and the like. 18x7.5” wheels (odd size) also cost me 800 dollars, unlike some 16” steel wheels I could have picked up from the local wrecking yard for 10 dollars a piece.

                This also allows people with tires not in the normal 15”/16” range to run tires that others in their class are running, leveling the playing field. Ever try to buy a high-void tire like a winterforce in a low profile size? They don’t exist. I have to run big-dollar, soft Michelins that get destroyed nearly every race.

                I disagree with those that say it should only be a -1 size, and not a +/-1 size. For instance, anyone with a car in stock class like a Dodge Neon, tiny Suzuki/Geo products, etc. are limited to 14” or even 13” wheels. Just like cars with 20” tires, if you can even find tires, they are garbage. A lot of the summer courses in the Detroit region can be won on sticky summer tires, so why handicap those with tiny size wheels from the factory as well?

                I have been trying to write to the SCCA with no avail before. SOLO has been doing this for some time already; I only see this +/- (or unlimited rule) as a way to open competition to cars other than the “usual suspects” with 15” or 16” wheels, while keeping costs down. Brake sizes on large cars (with big power) will self-govern a 300HP OEM vehicle from using 15” wheels anyway if the unlimited rule where put in place. The move to huge tire sizes is well underway on nearly every factory car, so busted wheels and huge expenses will become the norm for those wanting to race if this rule does not pass. Not every car with huge wheels also makes big power; modern 17 second 1/4 mile vehicles come with 20s now.

                With all due respect, those I have met that disagree with this rule either don't run in stock class anyway, or have "the" optimal car with 16x6.5 wheels and a rainbow of tire choices. Us modern or old vehicle guys suffer away in silence ; )

                My 2 cents.
                Last edited by UglyBoost91; 10-17-2017, 02:34 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by FooBag View Post

                  That's the exact way I read the new proposed rule and also why I voted against it. To the side, in front of the driver still allows for a fair high chance of exhaust coming into the passenger compartment.
                  This is a direct copy of the solo racing rule... It has been in their book for years with no safety incidents related to CO.... If it is a safety issue for us it would be for them too... And it isn't for them... Hence why I feel it would be a great addition to our rule book in the mod classes...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    The extra 3 feet of tube isn't going to make you lose an event, break the bank, or make it impossible to do whatever other mod you want to do. It's just a lazy shortcut.
                    Jim Perrin
                    WNY Region
                    NEDIV RX Steward

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by JOlschewski View Post

                      This is a direct copy of the solo racing rule... It has been in their book for years with no safety incidents related to CO.... If it is a safety issue for us it would be for them too... And it isn't for them... Hence why I feel it would be a great addition to our rule book in the mod classes...
                      The one thing SOLO does not have to contend with is snow. From personal experience at events in Michigan where snow can well exceed the bottom of your vehicle, having any chance for the exhaust to be buried under snow is IMO a dangerous situation from CO poisoning. Is it likely to be much different than having it behind the driver, maybe not, but from a safety standpoint, at least here in the northern parts of the country, it's something to at least ponder the legitimacy of doing...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Sorry all, I realized I was being a troll earlier by only commenting on the rules I was affected by ; ) My complete comments:
                        1. Move the studded tire rule from the Vehicle Classification – Stock Category to the Vehicle/Vehicle Driver Safety section.
                          1. Indifferent, doesn’t change the rule, right?
                        2. Clarify that Event Technical Inspector duties include determining general vehicle eligibility and vehicle/driver safety compliance, but not class/category specific compliance.
                          1. Agree? As long as someone picks up duties that included making sure cars are staying “legit” and in their class rules, I’m indifferent.
                        3. Restrict the ability to swap cars during an event.
                          1. Disagree, as long as the car is in the same class, or the driver is willing to move their win points to the class that matches the car they are driving, this should not be an issue. Driving car A for half the event (it breaks down) and then you drive car B is the same thing as if you just drove car B from the start of the event. Am I over simplifying this?
                        4. Consolidate the waiver requirements for participants and spectators into one section.
                          1. No comment, this is out of my scope as an average joe (not a lawyer.)
                        5. Allow reinforcement of attachment points for bumpers, body panels and trim pieces in Stock classes.
                          1. Agreed, KINDA; it's added weight and only helps protect the original body panels. As LONG AS it provides no structural rigidity improvement. (I admit this would be hard to police)
                        6. Prohibit non-U.S. market vehicles from competing in Stock classes (even if class compliant) OR require all non-U.S. market vehicles to compete in Modified classes.
                          1. Agreed, KINDA; I'm open to our international competitors joining, but unless it's the same as a US market vehicle minus a KMH speedo and dress up items, this opens the way for crazy gray market cars.
                        7. Assess a two second penalty for any standing cone that is knocked over or displaced, even cones that are more than 50 feet beyond the finish line.
                          1. Agreed; this reigns in those who get like to get stupid and wild, and penalizes them even if they don't get a DNF from going around a gate.
                        8. Allow the exhaust to exit to the side of the vehicle in front of the driver in Modified classes.
                          1. Disagree; in the snow states, having the chance for the exhaust to get buried while stationary under snow and have exhaust enter the cabin is a CO hazard. 5 Lbs of exhaust pipe never hurt anyone
                        9. Specifically state that electric vehicles are eligible to compete in Stock and Prepared categories.
                          1. Agreed, electric cars are here and will be coming in force, it would be good to get ahead of the curve and classify then, if for no other reason than to attract new competitors.
                        10. Revise the windshield rule.
                          1. Agreed, older vehicles are getting difficult to find windshields for
                        11. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock classes.
                          1. Agreed, and YES PLEASE; There is no way that allowing cars in a given class to have similar tire brands is a bad thing! Newer cars and older cars are very difficult to find good sized tires (at affordable prices, we are not all rich) in big/small wheel sizes. (13",14",18"+) and it will only get worse with time. Not every vehicle has 16" wheels with $45 dollar Winterforces. Solo has been doing this for years and it greatly opens the competition. I don't see how this could hurt anyone as long as we keep the DOT tire rule, it only helps. Big power cars will self govern wheel size with big brakes.
                        12. Allow front OR rear sway bar changes in Stock classes.
                          1. Agreed, no reason why not, as long as it’s one OR the other, not both. In my opinion, as much as I would like to modify both in my own SF car, it’s encroaching on prepared territory a bit.
                        13. Allow glass sunroof panels to be replaced with fiberglass panels in Modified classes.
                          1. Agreed; It’s modified, who cars? It’s safer! You can hack out an entire interior but not replace a sunroof panel with fiberglass that doesn’t shatter in a rollover?
                        14. Allow removal of the air conditioning system in Prepared classes.
                          1. Disagree, with this one. It allows too many changes that could really reduce weight, and penalizes those that choose not to remove it for reason of daily driving their car. Disable it by removing a belt? Sure no problem, but the potential for 40+ lbs of weight reduction, not-ok IMO. It would be ok though if someone fully converted to Non-AC specification IF a version of their vehicle came that way factory, and they made it fully compliant with that vehicle package.
                        15. Allow body dress-up modifications in Prepared classes.
                          1. Disagree, with this also. It blurs the lines with what could be aero modifications or bending fenders to fit crazy tires. Way too hard to police.
                        16. Allow modification of supercharger boost regulation systems in Prepared classes.
                          1. AGREE, YES! Turbo cars can modify boost in Prepared, why not state the same for Supercharged cars? I fail to see how this is any different.
                        17. Approve the new Open classes for inclusion at all 2018 National events.
                          1. Agree, more fun and competitors the better!
                        18. Revise the current rules to more clearly state that passengers are not allowed at National events.
                          1. Disagree; I always liked riding with someone when I started rally crossing, because I learned a lot, but it does give an advantage to the experienced of us, but even that’s a stretch. On the other hand, it adds 150+ lbs to your car, how is that an advantage to the driver? Haha.
                        19. Revise the rules submission timeline to extend the time for members to submit rule change proposals.
                          1. Agreed; more rule scrutinizing and polishing benefits us all.
                        20. Allow removal of soft tops in Stock or Prepared classes. (Omitted from original version.)
                          1. Disagree, unless this means the competition must run a hardtop as it currently states? Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m hoping this does not allow open top vehicles in non-OPEN classes; to dangerous IMO.
                        Last edited by UglyBoost91; 10-18-2017, 12:51 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by AlphaStream View Post
                          3. Restrict the ability to swap cars during an event.
                          Disagree. sureshot007's point is very valid, IMO.

                          6. Prohibit non-U.S. market vehicles from competing in Stock classes (even if class compliant) OR require all non-U.S. market vehicles to compete in Modified classes.
                          Strongly disagree. "Non-U.S. market vehicles may have performance advantages over their U.S. market counterparts" - this is irrelevant because the current classification completely ignores the performance aspect of the cars. For example, a stock 2.5RS or WRX or STI competes against stock Impreza or Crosstrek or Forester (which can be n.a., have automatic transmission, basic suspension etc).
                          Would much rather see performance cars differentiated from grocery getters.

                          7. Assess a two second penalty for any standing cone that is knocked over or displaced, even cones that are more than 50 feet beyond the finish line.
                          Not sure. Sometimes cones are used to mark the grid, and when grid has to be compact (many competitors), it might be quite possible to hit a cone. On the other hand, if a competitor is reckless enough to hit a cone this far behind the finish line due to loosing control of the car, they might need to be disqualified - at the discretion of the Safety Steward.

                          9. Specifically state that electric vehicles are eligible to compete in Stock and Prepared categories.
                          Strongly agree. Electric cars are cars, too!

                          11. Allow +/- 1” wheel diameter variance in Stock classes.
                          Strongly agree. Since snow tires are allowed, a competitor has to have a set of spare wheels with winter tires to stay competitive. That forces owners of newer cars to buy expensive 17/18/19" winter tires. This change would bring some justice for those.

                          Another way of solving this issue would be to make the wheel size open, as long as the outer diameter of the tire remains within 1/2" or 1" of the original. This way we'll enable those with 18/19" stock to buy cheaper 16/17" wheels/tires, while preventing a substantial increase of torque.

                          --------------------------------------------------

                          Something from me:
                          - Disallow winter tires in stock, unless there's snow on the track. As it is, everyone has to purchase/carry an extra set of wheels with snow tires to stay competitive, especially on a wet/muddy track.

                          I'll have to respectfully disagree with ya' on this one. I'm not sure where your local region is, but in the Detroit region and surrounding areas, going with all-seasons on loose dirt and grass would be a waste of time to even show up, and that's near half the summer events. In stock class, the only tires with large voids and lots of sipping to grab soft and slick surfaces, regardless of temperature, are snow tires. Having an extra set of wheels and tires is a part of racing. I have a couple sets for different conditions, and I'm by no means rich. Kill winter tires in stock and I, and my friends, would probably just say "forget it" and run SOLO, I have no interest in going to prepared for upgraded tires only.

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                          • #58
                            Looking at point 14. Here in Florida, air conditioning is mandatory for a car that is driven to events. 90 degrees when you leave the house at 5:00am, 100+ degrees all day, 100 degrees when you drive home. Most stage rally cars based here have AC installed. The guy that won nationals a few years ago in a miata drives with a cool suit all the time.

                            One option that keeps things reasonable is to add 50lbs of ballast if you remove the AC system. That way northern cars don't have to go out of their way to buy a broken compressor to comply with class rules. I don't need to buy a truck to pull my prepared class car to avoid heat exhaustion on the drive home.

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