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  • Crosskart buggy class concept

    So today I was fortunate enough to get to go play with one of these today at a specialty built track. I've heard of the safety/rollover concern regarding these. Simply put, cars have a much higher cg than these karts. So that shouldn't be a safety issue, unless talking about cars.
    Now for the reason for the thread. If all goes well with the open prep level class, the perfect companion if/when motorcycle powered cross karts are allowed in rx would be to create a 250 cc 4cycle powered kart.
    This idea is twofold, one it would be a growth market to attract karting competitors who aren't old enough to legally drive and two the safety aspect would also not be a point of contention, since scca ax allows jra and b competitors as young as 8, if I have the age right. First the rules could set minimum age at either 12 or 14. Second, from the safety point of view, by comparison a kart has no rollover protection for competitor at ax and a crosskart is designed for full containment of driver.

    Brent

  • #2
    Do you have pictures of the crosskart you drove? The ones I have seen have a lot more suspension travel and body roll than most cars. http://crosskartsusa.com/ The crosskart do have a CG higher than a go kart. Go karts in ax are wide, have very low CG and run on flat surfaces. Also, go-karts I have seen driven by kids have fairly low top speeds. The karts for smaller kids appear to be limited engines and are smaller as well. There is a lot of variation with karts in AX.

    The videos I have seen of crosskarts with motorcycle engines are running 70+mph fairly easy. Speed would be a consideration.

    Mark
    Mark Macoubrie
    RXB
    Kansas City Region
    2005 STI 41 PA

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is an older video of one of the karts and the track where I got to play.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THyMNRZtreo

      The course has already been lengthened with fastest run times of 1:20, so the average speed was maybe, around 55 mph, top speed on this course is faster than rallycross, but this is for wheel to wheel racing and thankfully rx course designers/safety stewards are the ones responsible for our course designs. For example the last nats I was at in Iowa would not see the new open class or crosskarts hitting speeds of 70 mph. What did Warren figure he ran 40-45 mph? Just like my 125cc shifter kart can do 100+mph, but I can't hit that speed at an autocross. While I mentioned the comparison between karts for ax and crosskarts for rx, the comparison wasn't about ground clearance, but rather safety in the scenario of a roll, which is a reality at both, I've seen too many at both disciplines. While a go kart sits maybe 1" off the ground, there is no protection for the driver, " in a worst case scenario", which could include loss of control and hitting a car. Which is why extra precautions are taken while karts run at ax.

      Ja, b, c use briggs and Stratton or Comer motors, with kart mod running 125cc 2 stroke motors. My reference to ax karting was more generalized to karts at ax and crosskarts hopefully in the future at rx, because "growth". It's the karts aren't street legal "cars", but are allowed to compete in ax philosophy. BTW, I checked the rules and at an age of 5, so definitely, speed limited to sllooowwww top speed, hence the possible limit of a 250 four stroke, plus maybe a somewhat slow power:weight ratio for a junior crosskart concept.

      Also playing on the same course with us were a couple of desert tube frame vw engine dune buggies, something that might be legal for the new class, if they lower the cg to fit the rules requirement. The buggy I drove probably sat 5"- 6" off the ground, similar to the link for the crosskarts you posted, but a different manufacturer. So if you do get the chance to see a crosskart in person, it won't have as much suspension travel, as you mentioned, unless you check out buggies designed for desert racing, which those do have higher cg's and more than 5-6" of travel, like the buggy I got to play with today.

      Brent

      Comment


      • #4
        The Solo Rules state "Generally, maximum speeds in the mid-50s to mid-60s (mph) are contemplated for Street and Street Touring® category vehicles, and WITH LIMITED EXCEPTIONS AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 2.2, MUST BE OBSERVED, since these are speeds with which the average driver is familiar from everyday road driving. But it is quite possible to set up a course on which speeds do not exceed 45 mph, but which is more hazardous than another course on which 65 mph is attainable. The same sort of reasoning must be applied to cornering speeds. If, for example, there are two identical 30 mph turns, one bordered by a 50 ft. drop off 24 — 2017 SCCA® National Solo® Rules 2. Course or a solid row of trees and the other by 50 ft. of flat, obstacle-free asphalt, the hazards involved are much different. The former is clearly not permissible in an SCCA® Solo® event and the latter clearly is."

        So in SOLO the speed limits do not apply to the modified class. In RallyCross the current rules state the max speed to not generally exceed 50mph for any competitor. That does not mean they cannot exceed the speed for short periods of time but in general need to be adhered to. One concern would be the speed differential between the Crosskart and a stock vehicle may make driving in the stock class very slow because the course will need to be designed to cap the speed of the crosskart.

        I agree that if a crosskart was used in a similar fashion as go karts in solo they would have to limit power and speed of the karts.

        I also think based on the CG of a crosskart vs a go kart and the difference in surfaces the risk of rollover in a crosskart is greater than the risk of rollover in a go kart at a solo event.

        Mark
        Mark Macoubrie
        RXB
        Kansas City Region
        2005 STI 41 PA

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gsxnut View Post
          So in SOLO the speed limits do not apply to the modified class. In RallyCross the current rules state the max speed to not generally exceed 50mph for any competitor.

          Mark
          It seems logical to make a correction(errors and omission) to the rx rules and follow the example of solo that you made above. You may or may not be aware that I did serve on the rx safety committee and safety is always the first priority.

          Can both crosskarts and go karts roll? yes. Again, rollovers at rx are a fact(ruts, driver attributes and car part failures) of our sport, but I've seen a VW Jetta roll(too much grip and course conditions) at a national tour ax.

          My point was in reference to who is going to likely be hurt, not which one has a higher cg. I watched someone I know who is currently racing DTM in Europe actually rolled a go kart during a race, from wheels, to his helmet and back to his wheels, essentially 300+lbs of kart and body weight and his neck was literally, supporting that weight. The fact that he was a kid, probably helped him survive that go kart incident.

          Under normal event conditions, both karts and crosskarts being overdriven are more likely to just spinout than rollover. Honestly, you will learn this if you ever have the chance to drive one.

          If possible, when the idea was floated at the national convention some years ago to try a demo rx at the horse arena at the South Point Casino, I offered my STi for free rides, this would be the perfect opportunity for crosskart companies at a future national convention. I would be willing to convince some companies to bring their karts for that.

          Brent

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Blakely View Post

            It seems logical to make a correction(errors and omission) to the rx rules and follow the example of solo that you made above. You may or may not be aware that I did serve on the rx safety committee and safety is always the first priority.

            Can both crosskarts and go karts roll? yes. Again, rollovers at rx are a fact(ruts, driver attributes and car part failures) of our sport, but I've seen a VW Jetta roll(too much grip and course conditions) at a national tour ax.

            My point was in reference to who is going to likely be hurt, not which one has a higher cg. I watched someone I know who is currently racing DTM in Europe actually rolled a go kart during a race, from wheels, to his helmet and back to his wheels, essentially 300+lbs of kart and body weight and his neck was literally, supporting that weight. The fact that he was a kid, probably helped him survive that go kart incident.

            Under normal event conditions, both karts and crosskarts being overdriven are more likely to just spinout than rollover. Honestly, you will learn this if you ever have the chance to drive one.

            If possible, when the idea was floated at the national convention some years ago to try a demo rx at the horse arena at the South Point Casino, I offered my STi for free rides, this would be the perfect opportunity for crosskart companies at a future national convention. I would be willing to convince some companies to bring their karts for that.

            Brent
            Brent,

            If you believe the rule for speed should be altered please make the suggestion in the 2019 rules suggestions forum.

            I agree that having a role cage around you is safer than not having one in the event of a rollover.

            I like the idea of having a demonstration at the national convention. Not sure what the arena cost but maybe if that does not work out there could be testing at an public land use site near Vegas.

            Mark
            Mark Macoubrie
            RXB
            Kansas City Region
            2005 STI 41 PA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by gsxnut View Post

              Brent,

              If you believe the rule for speed should be altered please make the suggestion in the 2019 rules suggestions forum.


              Mark
              Funny thing, when the return of RallySprint appeared eminent, I was the person on the RXB that pushed for the current speeds for RallyCross.

              I started to write a rule change proposal at your suggestion. Having reread section 4.3 out of the 2018 ruleset, it seems pretty well worded. It does reference different speed possibilities for stock vs "not normally exceed XX mph for any vehicle" whether it is in reference to a straight section or in a turn. With the "not normally" key in both.

              Again, unless someone has seen crosskarts in person and had a speed trap gun on them, guessing and speculation are not a valid point of view. My whole point for starting this thread, similar to another older crosskart thread is to keep an open mind to the future growth of RallyCross.

              Originally posted by gsxnut View Post
              I like the idea of having a demonstration at the national convention. Not sure what the arena cost but maybe if that does not work out there could be testing at an public land use site near Vegas.
              Mark
              Let me know if the RXB wants to pursue this for next years convention, I'd possibly be able to get manufacturers from Socal and Norcal to bring their products to Vegas if this could happen. When the horse arena was first mentioned a few years ago and I proposed letting people try rallycross in my STi, no matter the age of the BOD members, they all were bright eyed at the idea.

              Brent

              Comment

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